robio said:

By the way Bear, how is the arm/should doing?

Healing slow, at least  I did not need surgery. The pain killers are flowing though.

Archangel3371 said:

Pretty harsh sentence. Who did you club?

Baby seals.

So is everyone here, except Archie, a Wii u owner now?

Did you really?  You traded...poorly.

Foolz said:

Not sure how that's more trolling than your statement?

There's a cut off point where a puzzle, regardless of complexity, ceases to present a challenge (which is kinda necessary when it comes to puzzles). Anything below this point is equally useless. That's the nature of puzzles. Five times five plus two is more complicated than five times five, but as far as I'm concerned both are going to be equally bad in terms of their affect on gameplay, because both are below the threshold of eliciting anything in the player; the same can be applied to the principles of battle design. The only exception to this rule is if they are very, very long and complex: which the puzzles and battles in both TP and TWW are not. Therefore the battle design and puzzles are below this threshold in both TWW and TP, but everything else about TWW wasn't redundant shite as it was in TP. And TWW had a valid gameplay element that was head and shoulders, while still flawed, above anything in TP (exploration). And it was new in its implementation for the series as well, which easily makes up for its marginally worse puzzle and battle design sensibilities (which, incidentally*, are dramatically superior). All TP had was the shallow but briefly fun dark and light worlds which OOT did much better with the adult and young link juxtaposition. It really doesn't help that TP is so like OTT which, while no masterpiece (with a GC controller. :X), is far, far better designed in every facet but mechanical control.

*Before you complain about judging Zelda on drama, please note the asterisked word.

Well at least now you are giving me something rather than crap like "it is redundant". Yes exploration is the one area WW that it can hold its head high. But the rest you argue is dumb, no there is no magic threshold and if there was TP more than passed it many times. You play to be engaged, to have fun, to take part in great gameplay moments. TP has far better moments everyone, in dungeons, outside dungeons. It has better mini games, better combat mechanics, far more interesting BRAND NEW items, better bosses, better pacing.

As for puzzles, I would say this is one of the hardest puzzles in the game

Got many people stuck and was a basic traditional puzzle. You can't not think you way through this one. On the flip side the closest puzzle WW has that even remotely reaches this level of complexity is this thing.

Where the floor is basically marked where you can push blocks. The most complex room in any WW dungeon was this from the earth temple

Which had MARKED holes on the floor on where to put the statues. Not only that it had set paths so you couldnt even move the statues away from the path if you wanted to, pathetic.

Compare that to lets just take the third dungeon

Here is a dungeon where you manipulated the dungeon itself to create paths and find your way around that. WW didint have any think like that.

Or take the temple of time where you have to take control of the statues and move them all the way down to the bottom floor solving all sorts of puzzles along the way. WW has this similar mechanic with the statues in the temple and controlling the secondary character but never makes great use of them. The stuff in this one dungeon in TP has better puzzles than what is in WW.

I am not saying TP has portal level puzzles, or it takes a genius to solve them but they are not insulting like WW. There is a difference, TP was a joy to solve the puzzles, and WW had some of those to every once in a while but it was far more rare. Not only that every dungeon in TP had an amazing theme and a certain level of level design that WW doesnt even come close to matching. The Snowpeak dungeon doubling as a mansion. The way the temple of light has you scale up the tower playing one style of play, then come down having to rethink every room you just passed. Not to mention the new items themselves were an absolute blast to use, grinding on rails, awesome. Double hookshots, hell yes.

Zelda is about the mix of action and puzzles, the chase of the aha moment followed by something FUN in a gameplay sense. All the items you earn, the way they are used, the way you approach enemies and puzzles is done in a manner that is fun. WW like all Zelda still excells at this but it doesn't reach the levels of fun that TP. When I got into a dungeon in WW it rarely made me think outside the box, everything was room to room to room. TP has some dungeons like that but it had a mix with a few that were far more open and created that sense of "ok when I get this new item I am going to have to start to rethink how I approach these areas." Not to mention the moment to moment action of TP has a lot more happening in a gameplay sense from changing into multiple forms like a wolf, and having all the abilities of a fish. To having horseback combat/chases, real archery competitions, I believe you fly some bird thing, there is fishing, fun ball mini games. It has so much more to do. That is what makes a game, all the moments, the design all coming together to create an experience.

If exploration is the element you treasure the most then I see no issue with WW being better than TP. MM is my favorite cause it does NPCs and side quests in such a unique way and there is nothing like it. But WW is really traditional outside the ocean sailing. Once you hop on land it is the same game as TP, a worse game.

Not to troll or anything, but boy the Temple of the Ocean King is really great. I just love it.

"Here is a dungeon where you manipulated the dungeon itself to create paths and find your way around that"

Because that could be describing the shittest dungeon ever. A concept is not good because it is a concept.

Without explaining why anything of that is good, you have nothing more useful than the word "redundant" has.

Foolz said:

"Here is a dungeon where you manipulated the dungeon itself to create paths and find your way around that"

Because that could be describing the shittest dungeon ever. A concept is not good because it is a concept.

Without explaining why anything of that is good, you have nothing more useful than the word "redundant" has.

Cause I expect you to understand Zelda and know why that is a good thing. Well I guess there are two types of people, people that think the water dungeon in OoT is genius and those that think it is a pain in the ass. I think it was genius. I believe levels where you manipulate the structure of the level and have to move pieces of that level to gain access to other pieces and in turn moves pieces back to reach previous areas with new items is an excellent gameplay/puzzle device. It breaks free from the "enter the room, look around and look for a solution to that room puzzle, then move on" structure that Zelda games have gotten a habit of doing. The dungeon should be maze like, that is lost now. I understand the majority of TP levels are not maze like and follow the room to room structure but at least it has one or two dungeons like the water temple, where WW had zero.

Dvader said:

Cause I expect you to understand Zelda and know why that is a good thing. Well I guess there are two types of people, people that think the water dungeon in OoT is genius and those that think it is a pain in the ass. I think it was genius. I believe levels where you manipulate the structure of the level and have to move pieces of that level to gain access to other pieces and in turn moves pieces back to reach previous areas with new items is an excellent gameplay/puzzle device. It breaks free from the "enter the room, look around and look for a solution to that room puzzle, then move on" structure that Zelda games have gotten a habit of doing. The dungeon should be maze like, that is lost now. I understand the majority of TP levels are not maze like and go the room to room thing but at least it has one or two dungeons like the water temple, where WW had zero.

As I expect you to understand criticism and Zelda to infer the meaning of redundant: by your own statement you demonstrate their identical meaninglessness lol.

Dvader said:

Redundant to me is as boring a critique as" it has bad graphics". Mario Galaxy 2 was redundant, still a masterpiece. Its a stupid argument to me, while valid, it holds little weight. If TP was the 4th OoT like Zelda game in 5 years then ok, I get it, but TP is not that.

That's fine with me, just don't call it meaningless and trolling, then respond with something equally meaningless containing trolly asides.